#18 ROWViGOR

From Gimlet, I’m Josh Muccio this is The Pitch.

On this show, we take you into the room where entrepreneurs pitch investors for funding.

On today’s episode, a pair of founders hope to cash in on what they think is the next big trend in fitness. But first, they need to convince our investors.

Phil Nadel is with Forefront Venture Partners. Phil lets the numbers behind a pitch do all the talking. 

Phil: How much are you raising and what terms?

Jillian Manus is with Structure Capital. She loves a good product - but it’s the founders who really catch her attention. 

Jillian: you are a breath of fresh air.

Daniel Gulati is here with Comcast Ventures. He likes to step back and look at the big picture in search of products that could result in big money. 

Daniel: I just think that this is a massive market opportunity here. And I think you're going after something really interesting.

And on today’s episode, in the coveted fourth seat is Charles Hudson, with Precursor Ventures. He invests like an angel — small checks, early in a company’s life. Even if the concept is unproven he’ll take the risk if he sees potential. 

Charles: I was impressed by your thoughtfulness about the problem. And I think injecting humor in a brand is something I like to see.

Before today’s pitch even kicks off, there’s something in the room that’s got the investors’ attention — sitting center stage is a rowing machine. Or, as those in the know call it, an erg.

Male Speaker 2: Is this going to be the Peloton of rowing?

Phil: I hope so. That I would be in on.

Daniel: He doesn’t really know that many people.

Male Speaker 2: Hello, hello.

Phil: Hi.

The founders, Kevin and Moses, join the rowing machine in the room. 

Kevin: You guys have met our friend the erg over here?

Charles: Yeah. Yeah of course.

Jillian: Of course. 

Kevin: Well cool. My name is Kevin Allen, I’m the CEO of Row Vigor. And this is Moses, he is our Chief Technology Officer. So about three years ago, a good friend of mine I’ve known since I was 13 years old, 20 year fitness professional, came to me and he said - I think there’s an opportunity for rowing based fitness in our space. He said, he kept having customers that come to him asking for good rowing based fitness.

So Kevin did some research — and he discovered that rowing is actually a very effective way to workout. It’s a low-impact exercise that works 85% of your muscle groups. 

Kevin: I found out a lot of good things about rowing and rowing fitness in general that spelled opportunity for me. a lot of physical therapists recommend rowing, particularly when you have a knee or hip replacement. I found out that there wasn’t really a big national brand for rowing based fitness.

So Kevin and his friend set out to see if they could be the ones, to start that first, rowing-based fitness brand.

In August 2016 ROWViGOR was born. They set up a pop-up rowing studio in the D.C. area with the goal of getting 1000 people to join.

Kevin: We wanted to build a community around rowing based fitness. Seven months later we had our thousand people. We had been written up in The Washington Post, we were rated one of the top fitness experiences in the area

Over time, they refined their business model, choosing to go after a much larger market than a brick-and-mortar gym: at-home fitness. Essentially, they want to bring rowing right to people’s homes through a bluetooth-enabled rowing machine.

Kevin and Moses are valuing their company at 3 million dollars and are here today to raise the 500 thousand dollars they need to get their product off the ground.

Kevin: Fast forward to today. I think the timing is right for software that can support rowing based fitness and a community based experience at home. and now we’re 30 days from launching our in-home product that we call the Vigor Box. The Vigor Box is everything you need to enjoyrowing based fitness./

In addition the rowing machine, the Vigor Box will include access to a library of rowing classes. 

Kevin: would you like to see one? We can show you one of our classes.

Jillian: Yeah. 

Moses: We made our app both for iPad as well as the iPhone.

This is Moses, Kevin’s cofounder.

Moses: What we did with our brick and mortar, we looked at our most popular classes, and we basically took the data from that and we selected our top three classes from that. And so here's our fitness partner, Fola.

Moses presses play on one of the classes available in the ROWVIGOR app. 

[music]

Jillian: Oh I like this.

Fola: Shoulders stay back the entire time.

Jillian: I don't know if I like him or this.

Moses: Either way. Either way.

On the screen the instructor, Fola, is walking viewers through a popular rowing routine so they can follow along at home. It’s worth noting that, unlike a lot of the current fitness trends, ROWViGOR is going old school with these pre-recorded classes.

Phil: So there won't be live classes that the rowers participate in?

Kevin: No. In the beginning there will be archive classes. Could we go to a live class model? Absolutely. Could we go to a model where we set up cameras inside various studios and strike deals with different brick and mortar based companies? Absolutely. Right now we're hyper focused on an archive based solution on the training, on the goal setting. But these are all possibilities for us down the line.

Jillian: So Phil you're a big Peloton person. Correct?

Phil: I like their business model a lot. I don't have one.

Jillian: Oh, I thought you had one.

Phil: No. I think a lot of people who, friends of mine who use Peloton and they say two things about the live classes they like. One is that they see that leaderboard and they see themselves competing and how they’re doing on the leaderboard. And the other is that they get shout outs from the instructor, from the leader, who says, come on Jillian! Pick it up! You’re in 32nd place. Come on, you can do it. And they actually get that motivation real time live for them.

This competition element that Phil is talking about is at the heart of a lot of the current blockbuster fitness brands, including Peloton and CrossFit. While they certainly have their differences — CrossFit is a brick-and-mortar gym while Peloton is home-based fitness — they both have this one important thing in common: live classes that promote a sense of community among their members.

But Kevin thinks those brands are missing out on an even bigger opportunity.

Kevin: One of the things we see in the fitness market is that a lot of people are putting content out. Which Peloton is doing in an outstanding way. But they're not supporting their customers in a journey. I was talking to a woman the other day who has a Peloton bike and she said, I love it, I love the classes. But what I don't love is that there's no accountability. No one is telling me that I have to go to class. No one is asking about me if I don't join that class. 

ROWViGOR has found a way to unlock that accountability piece: by connecting each member with a personal trainer - the trainer will work with members to make sure they’re hitting their fitness goals.

Kevin: Somebody is there looking at your data saying, hey, Kevin, you've only been on the erg once this week. You have a goal in six months to be ready for your daughter's wedding. Why aren't you getting on the erg? So we make everybody give us a goal, we onboard them that way, and we continually refine those goals. 

Charles: How specific does a goal have to be? Because I'd imagine a lot of people are like, I just want to get in shape. It's not a specific, it's not tied to an event, it's not tied to a specific weight loss goal, I just want to get in shape. That's one. And two, what is retention, what does retention have to look like for a service like this for it to make sense for you?

Kevin: We want to be north of 85% in terms of keeping people engaged. We think we can do better than that. We're looking at this in the 90 - 95% range just because of the elements that we talked about.

Daniel: That would be insanely phenomenal.

Phil: Off the charts.

Charles: For your category. That would be a whole other world. 

Kevin: But, you know, we also believe that in terms of goal setting, you can make it as specific as you want to make it. We would want the person, and the reason, we have a very specific process laid out that includes you setting a goal first, which may be very general, and then us following up and asking you a question or two. That's that personal training piece, and that's why that's so important.

And the personal trainer does more than just help you set goals.

Kevin: First of all, we do teach the right rowing technique. On the app, all the time, is somebody showing you the proper rowing technique. Second of all, because we allowed basically Facetime for Row Vigor, you can actually plug in, show a trainer, this is how I'm rowing, and they can correct you real time through the application.

Daniel: I actually really like the hybrid model that you guys are going for. The personal trainer plus the content library. And how does content creation work? How does that piece of the puzzle fit? So at the moment it sounds like you guys are developing your own programs, developing this your own content, essentially, on the app.What's that piece?

Kevin:So early on, we're going to replicate what has been successful for us to date, and that's filming existing classes, basically staged classes. So like you might see, going back to the old Jane Fonda workouts.

Jillian: I love those! I still have that by the way. On the tape. I'm not kidding you.

Kevin: They're great. They're great.

Jillian: I still have the machine, because I can't get it on a disc. I kid you not. I even have those little workout things on. You know, the leggings. They're sexy, aren't they? They smack sexy.

Charles: Those are coming back aren’t they? I feel like they’re coming back.

Jillian: Absolutely.

Kevin: I could see that. That's a little scary in my mind.

Jillian: Unbelievable.

Kevin: You've done it a lot of times. My wife does our kettlebell workout every day. Like that's her thing.

Jillian: Really? So the kettle bell. Okay, go back to the thing and then we'll ask you.

Kevin: Filming existing workout staged. So not going into a class and filming a live class. Getting it staged. Running about $15 - 20,000 per production. We're working to get that cost down with our producer.

Phil: How many do you have in the can?

Kevin: We have three archived now.

Daniel: And that's your own...

Kevin: That's our own Row Vigor content.

Kevin’s trying to sell investors on the fact that ROWViGOR is on its way to building a huge library of high production classes. But is high production really a selling point for people? 

Daniel:When I think about media like that, I think a lot about substitutable media. Like, I go on YouTube, I find something that's like not as high production value, but I can probably find like a hundred videos on how to row the right way. is this content so much better than the free substitutes out there that folks would be willing to pay? And I get that there's a community element too, so I'm not just anchoring on the content. But have you seen any proof points around willingness to pay for a library of that high production value content?

Kevin: Well, there's plenty of models out there where people are streaming content and getting paid for it.

Daniel: and then how much is the consumer paying for the annual subscription?

Phil: First for the Vigor Box what are they paying?

Kevin: For the Vigor Box with the Concept 2 and a year's worth of subscription it's about $1400.

Daniel: But just... So if I renew my subscription in year two, how much am I paying?

Kevin: It'll be $25 a month right now on average. We're looking at a tiered strategy where we're giving users access to content based on that pricing.

Phil: So the $25 a month includes how much?

Kevin: $25 a month will include 30 minutes of personal training per month. And get you access to all of our content as it stands today.

For every question, Kevin has an answer. But the investors aren’t showing their cards, and it’s hard to tell if they think the Vigor Box is the next it thing in fitness.

Daniel: Does the consumer want this bundle? So I could go out and get a rowing machine, I could go out and subscribe to MoveWith, I can go out and get a personal trainer. And that costs me x dollars, and that's an unbundled solution. This is a bundled solution. Why am I going for your bundle?

Kevin: Convenience, mostly. Rowing is probably new to a lot of people in our consumer base, so they're saying I need a solution where somebody is going to support me in being successful at what I do. That's why we believe that people will come to us and want the whole bundle.It's not about just throwing content at you. It's aboutmaking you successful as a fitness person, as somebody who wants to have a healthy lifestyle.

Daniel: I guess my point was I can still get that in a piecemeal way outside of Row Vigor.

Kevin:It's a convenience play, quite honestly.

Daniel: Is it a price play?

Kevin: Um.

Daniel: Because that would be compelling, if it was.

Kevin: The personal training piece is certainly a price play. Because if you're going to get somebody personally, it could cost you $100, $150, $200 an hour or up. Because we're doing this virtually, we can offer it at a much reduced pricing point. So there is some value to that.

Charles: But to Daniel’s point, can I unbundle if my gym has a rowing machine and I’m just looking to augment my workout? I like the instruction, I like Fola, I like the experience, but I don’t want to buy a Row Vigor for my house. Can I just, so you can have a headless subscription?

Kevin: We have an app-only model as well built into this. So you can buy the app, you can buy the bundle. You can buy this in whatever pieces that you want.

So that changes things a bit, you don’t have to spend $1400 dollars with ROWViGOR, you could buy your rowing machine elsewhere, or if you’re one of those hardcore fitness people with your own personal erg, you can still use the ROWViGOR app a la cart, starting at $25 a month.

But even with this kind of flexibility, it remains to be seen if it’ll be enough to get people to change their fitness routine.

Phil: So where are you in terms of traction? Where are you with revenue? What stage are you at? I don’t have a sense of that.

Kevin: We’re 30 days away from launch. So we’ve got the application together, we’ve got, we’re polishing now, we’ve started pre-sales last week, just putting out, saying we’re going to have a Vigor Box, here’s what it looks like. Would you rent it or would you buy it? So we’re also starting to get indications of interest from there. But we are pre-revenue with regard to the product. We’ve made some money...

Jillian: How much?

Kevin: Excuse me?

Jillian: How much have you made?

Kevin: We made $40,000 during our little experiment in the brick and mortar. But again, that was designed to be an experiment. I don’t really consider that revenue because it’s not based on the model that we have. So we are pre-revenue technically. But we’re ready to go. 

Kevin has made his case. Now it’s up to investors.

Here’s Phil

Phil: Well, I think it’s a cool model. I like what you’re doing. Based on where you are today, it’s relatively simple because I feel like it’s too early. It’s pre-revenue. I don’t invest in pre-revenue companies. So those are some of my thoughts for why I’m passing.

Phil’s out, here’s Daniel

Daniel: So...The bundle thing is still a thing for me. I’m just not, putting myself into the mind of the consumer, I’m not totally bought in on the fact that this bundled offering really creates a utility surplus for me as a consumer. Because as a consumer I can pick my own trainer, I can choose my own rowing machine, I can subscribe to whatever content library I want. And so to me, this actually feels more restrictive.

Phil: I don’t mean to interrupt, but couldn’t you make that same argument for Peloton in a sense?

Daniel: No, because Peloton... I asked myself the same question. Peloton feels to me feels like, it’s proprietary hardware, it’s a live class that is run concurrently with other Peloton users, feels like a true community.

Phil:But you hit on a good point there, and that’s what I was wondering about early on, the difference in their model is this static content versus the live community feel.

Daniel: And I think that’s a big difference. The question is like do I want to invest in the business that you guys are presenting us. And the business that you’re presenting us is not a live class thing...

Phil: But then, it sounds like your objection, which I would agree with, by the way, is that something that may be missing here is that live component?

Daniel: You’re right. I think if you guys said Row Vigor is literally the next Peloton where we’re going to develop custom hardware and have synchronized instruction, I think that would lead me down the path of this is a real community, there is a real network effect here and there’s real stickiness here. Instead, I think what you’ve pitched is a different model. that proposition that you’re offering me as a consumer isn’t compelling enough to generate $100 million, $500 million enterprise value opportunity. You’ll make a business, it just won’t be a disruptive venture scale business. 

Kevin: I hear you. And I appreciate that feedback.

Even though Daniel sounds like he’s going to pass, Kevin’s still making his pitch.

Kevin: But I think that the thing I love about where we are now is that we’re really excited to get to market and look at the data, and this $500,000 allows us to get the traction that we need, we think, to ratchet up the valuation and put ourselves in a position to really succeed and win this category.

Daniel: Look, I’m going to pass on this round. I think when the business feels a little bit more, when the product feels a little bit more stitched together, I’d love to revisit and meet you guys again. 

Daniel’s out. Here’s Charles

Charles: So I invest almost exclusively in pre-revenue companies. I'm struggling with the thing that Daniel alluded to. I like everything that you said.The issue I'm having is I could tell a story that says go all brick and mortar. And there is a rowing studio near my office that's packed. So something is happening in rowing. I would love to stay in touch with you. Because I feel like you have too many things that you could explore and they’re all interesting. And I have a feeling that when you settle on the thing that you’re going to do as the model, I could tell you ten different stories that all work, it doesn’t matter what I think. It only matters what you guys decide to do. So for me, I really wanted to say yes to this one, because I have a really good feeling about you in particular, Kevin, and you Moses, but you all are not going to get wedded to something that doesn’t work. But I just want to know what the ‘it’ is first. I don’t even care about the pre-revenue. I just feel like the model has too many options in it, and I’d love to see you just put a firmer stake in the ground. Because I think you could build a product in this category. I just don’t have the answer for what it looks like.

Daniel: Yeah

Kevin: I appreciate that. I appreciate that.

Phil: Jillian?

Jillian: So... I’m learning a lot from all of them alright on this one. And I’m a fitness fanatic. So I’m all excited about everything when it comes to fitness. I do think… We’ve got to try it to buy it, to buy into it. And I think the content creation around the rowing is not as costly, it’s not as capital intense. And I do think that there’s something there that you should just continue to create that, andsee if you can get some traction in that way,and it won’t take you off your business model going forward. umm that’s my thought around this. So I’m not going to invest in this. And I do want to stay in touch. Because I do think you have something here.

Kevin:would you all indulge me for just a moment while I kind of brainstorm out loud with you. One of the reasons why we see this raise as being so important is we’re looking for partnerships. We’re not looking for an investment, kind of a friends and families, hey I believe in you guys, it’s great and we’re going to go home and tell me how it works out. We’re looking for people who can sit in a room like this and have these discussions with us so that we can start to figure some of these things out. I wonder is there a model where we say we’re going to take 10, 15, $20,000 And if the metrics look like x, y, and z, we’ll double down and make an investment. Have you all done anything like that in the past?

Kevin is not ready to take no for an answer. After getting four no’s, he’s coming back to investors and basically saying, what’s $15, $20K? Take a flyer on me.

Daniel: Um, I can give you my thought on that.I’ve never done that, I don’t like doing that. I don’t think I will look to do that.Like there are so many more dimensions to making an investment decision other than are we going to hit these short term metrics. Which, by the way, I’ve been a founder, there are ways to game that anyway. So I think in terms of a metrics based pre-negotiated investment deal, I’m just speaking for myself, it’s not something that I do.

Jillian: I agree, Nor I.

None of the investors are biting on this last minute plea.

Jillian:Have you ever thought of the Kickstarter, have you thought of raising money around that?

Kevin: We have been giving a lot of thought to Kickstarter 

Phil: And I agree from your perspective. I don’t think you want to raise $20,000 or a small amount like that from VCs. I think you need to find a way to fund that.But I think, for that’s short money. And you should either fund that yourselves, friends and family, or do a Kickstarter to try to prove that out.

Kevin: That’s a great course. I think Kickstarter could be a great way to show how impactful we can be, and then look to the raise as more fuel on the fire, and mitigate some of the risk that’s inherent in a company at our stage. 

Moses: That’s great. Thank you all.

[thanks all around]

Kevin and Moses finally admit defeat. But while they didn’t get the funding they were looking for, they did get some solid encouragement from our investors — and the kind of let’s-stay-in-touch sentiment that might mean nothing… but could eventually turn into something. 

After the founders leave the room, the investors speak freely. 

Phil: So yeah, I mean I think we gave them a good course of action in terms of they’re just early. They have a good core of an idea, and they need to figure out which, there’s so many directions they can go with it.

Charles: They've just got to take a point of view. And you can just be like, there's seven different things. You've just got to take a point of view.

Phil: Figure out which direction they want to really go all in on and then do it.

Jillian: Liked him, though. Really, really liked him. I like Moses. Moses is obviously the kind of pensive, quiet, techy. But...

Daniel: Kevin should have his own podcast.

Phil: And by the way if they do the Kickstarter, he would be great on the Kickstarter video. He'd be great on that.

Jillian: Absolutely. Him and Fola. 

After the break, I call Kevin up and find out what happened after his pitch.

[break]

About a month after Kevin pitched our investors, I called him up to see how things are going with ROWViGOR’s launch. 

Kevin: Well since the pitch, um, we really took the advice of the panel to heart. And the message was sort of loud and clear for us. What we heard was like you guys have a great model, we love what you’re doing, but we need to see some traction out of your core product.

Josh: Yeah.

Kevin: And so we talked a lot about how to get traction and Kickstarter was one of the ways that we saw a path for ourselves to get traction and kind of prove the model. So we've been head down getting ourselves ready for a kickstarter campaign we hope to launch in the near future. 

Josh: You’re kidding So you switched gears. What you're telling me is you are raising a kickstarter in lieu of raising VC funds.

Kevin: That's correct, that's correct.

Josh: Oh, wow. That's an about face.

Kevin: It is, it is. And you have to be flexible like that Josh. When investors tell you that this is what we're looking for to invest in a company like yours, you have to be responsive to that. And you know, we've shown this kind of mentality throughout the history of our company. They told us 'build an app' so we built an app in three months. They told us prove the concept so we opened a gym, got a thousand people. This is what we do.

Josh: [laughs]

Kevin: being on the pitch was so instrumental in helping us make this decision and understanding how an investor looks at a company in our stage and what they're looking for. It gave us the confidence to move forward and get done uh, a project like this. And get moving to get some, proof of concept, which is then bankable.

Josh: Yeah. What do you, what do you remember from the pitch to the four investors? What stands out in your mind? 

Kevin: What stands out in my mind is you know, I really had this whole thing in my head how it was gonna go, right? And it completely did not go that way. [laughs]

Josh: What happened?

Kevin: Well you know, and I think that's a good thing. It turned into such a conversation around the, the, you know the direction that we were going as a company, around the product, and around where the market was going. It kind of. It actually went a lot better than I had anticipated. 

Josh: Really?

Kevin: Um. And I think part of the reason was. You know I really do believe that the investors liked what they saw in our model and in what we had done. And to get to a point where you can have a conversation around your business model and get specific direction in terms of what the next steps need to be. I mean, that's a win. And i didn't think we were gonna get to that, and we did. And that was, in my mind, a real blessing for us. 

Josh: Wow, you really are not looking at this as a, as a failure at all. It almost sounds like you’re just saying like oh, they said no but they told us exactly what we needed to do before they would invest. So we’re gonna go do that, and then they’re gonna invest. 

Kevin: That’s right. That’s how I think about it. And that’s what I heard from the investors. you know, if getting that kind of feedback is so valuable for a company at our stage, you know you’d be stupid not to listen. And so we’re listening. 

Josh: There was one moment in the pitch where I think it was right after all the investors had passed, and you said, what if you guys put in a small check, $20,000 now, and there was a condition where if we met certain numbers you would put more money in later. And you almost gave that as kind of a last ditch effort. Something I’ve never seen on this show before. I’ve heard of it happening, I’ve heard of investors investing that way. Um, but I’ve never seen it on the show. Is that something that like... Has it worked for you in the past? Have you ever actually done that?

Kevin: I’ve never even asked that question before. 

Josh: You’re kidding.

Kevin: No, I’m not. I can tell you what my mindset was. And kind of, what I was thinking. First of all, I qualified the heck out of it, right? Like, I’ve never done this before, thought about it that much, but this is something that’s come into my mind now.

Josh: That really hit you in the moment?

Kevin: It did, it did. And what I was thinking was you know, the conversation is going so well, but I feel the resistance, right, from the investors, I feel it based on traction. And, and, you know, to put ourselves, thinking about so how do I address this traction concern with the investors right now?

Josh: Right, right, you need the money to get the traction, it’s that whole chicken and egg thing. How do we bridge the gap?

Kevin: That’s exactly right. So what I thought in my head is like, can I do, you know, can I essentially get a small campaign funded as a proof of concept. So instead of doing something like a kickstarter, are the investors in enough to say aw well, that’s not a bad idea, I can stick a toe in the water and get uh, get uh, be first in line. And and you know, just thinking like, just socializing that with them was my thought. And saying I wonder how they’re going to respond to that and if there’s anything else that I may not be thinking about that has happened in the back rooms of the deals that they have made, that lend itself to something like that.

Josh: You just wanted them to think creatively. Like, okay what would it take for you guys to make a deal here today.

Kevin: That’s right. Total hail mary, but you know, my son’s favorite team is the Green Bay Packers. Aaron Rodgers does it all the time. You know, sometimes you make a catch, right?

Josh: Sometimes in the fourth quarter, you got like 10 seconds left, you’ve got one play, you aren’t even near the end zone, you just gotta go for it.

All right, maybe a rowing metaphor would have been more apt… but I don’t know any rowing metaphors. But I’ve got to hand it to Kevin for thinking creatively in the moment and for not going down without a fight. That’s exactly the kind of scrappy mentality you need as a founder if you want to make it in this dog eat dog world. 

We’re wishing Kevin and Moses the best as they plan on taking their kickstarter live within the month.

Hey, so I wanted to let you, the listener, know that we’re gonna do something a little different. We’re opening up the phone lines for a special episode we’ve got planned. And we want to hear from you— anything from questions about entrepreneurship to questions about the show. Whatever you have on your mind. It could be something you want to ask the investors, or a founder, or me! Give us a ring at (347) 915-3123 and leave us a voicemail. Or if you prefer to email your question, send it to thepitch@gimletmedia.com

Okay! We’ve got a brand new episode for you next week, stay tuned after the credits to hear scenes from that episode.

Our show is produced by me, Josh Muccio, Molly Donahue, and Kareem Maddox. We are edited by Devon Taylor.

Our Theme Music is by Breakmaster Cylinder, with original music composed by The Muse Maker and Bobby Lord. We were mixed by Enoch Kim with help from Matt Boll.

Lisa Muccio plans our recording events and thanks to Asthaa Chaturvedi for her reporting on this episode.

I’d like to thank Brian Dixon and the team at Capital Innovators for introducing us to RowVigor.

And a quick disclaimer, no offer to invest is being made to or solicited from the listening audience on today’s show.

All right -- you’ve been listening to The Pitch from Gimlet Media. See you next week.

Next week on The Pitch

Daniel: I would have thought that 90% of retailers already have apps. And so are we kind of too late or?

Sterling: So 2% of retailers have mobile applications right now.

Jillian: Really?

Daniel: Wow. That's shocking. 

Sterling: There are wolves in sheep’s clothing that are building mobile apps that you can download from the app store

Daniel: Who are those wolves?

Sterling: Do you want me to put, I don’t want to really put them out there like that. 

New episodes come out on Wednesday 12 EST. Make sure you’re subscribed wherever you listen.